Monday, 29 June 2015

Discussions--Series 28--ELT Professionals Around the World

Please read Post 68 and then come back here. Thanks.

Discussions--Series Twenty-Eight
Topic 95
David Dubelbeiss
What common "mistakes" do native speakers make?
I'm not sure about calling them mistakes, let's call them "non-standard variations".

For example, many native speakers in my part of the world might say, "If she had went to the party" (see more about the death of the past participle in this discussion -https://www.linkedin.com/grp/post/3460329-269675505 )

What other non-standard native speaking forms are there that English language learners should be aware of?
linkedin.com•Since I've come back to Canada (been back now 3 years), I've been so surprised by one major change in the English language in this part of the world....
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'Of' instead of 'have': "You shouldn't of done that." This is a common enough mistake - I don't really think we can help by calling it a "non-standard variation".
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Have you's guys ever heard yourselves (in the plural) been referred to like this before?

Yousuns = you's ones is very common in Ireland.

I could of done it is common now. Also , we was robbed and, as my old head of deoartment used to say 'you was and we wad'wwas was
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I do think the head of an English department should use the prescribed forms as they need to set a decent example for foreign students. I used to cringe every time I heard her say 'you was' and 'we was'!

Also, if I would have done it.

Little apples rather than few and less people rather than fewer.

Have you noticed native speakers pronouncing the past tense form of the word "ask" as "ast" instead of "asked? I imagined that this is a phonetic adaptation because "ast" is much easier to pronounce than "asked".
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I hear lots of "between you and I" from native speakers.
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How about writing "your" for "you're" and vice-versa. Boy do I see that one almost every day among Americans!

I see alot or allot a lot.

What about "chall" you all?

I could care less.

Lots of misplaced apostrophes in plurals.

Like I was saying (should be as, not like); You better (should be you'd=you had better)

could of, would of, should of.....
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Count vs non-count mistakes all the time: "a large amount of people"
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"reason why is because" - triple word score on concept of causality!
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Misspelling issue..
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If I was a fish...(instead of if I were a fish,..(conditional / contrary-to-fact in 1st & 3rd person singular) I have heard this so often in pop songs across the decades that it's no wonder people can't seem to avoid this error.
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Also "co-conspirator" I don't see it so often lately, but in the 1990's it was frequently misused in the American media.
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Fewer and less is quite common I find.
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"Like"/"as if", "less"/ "fewer", "another" for a number larger than one. Malapropisms
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DB and BO'D have noted my pet hates. I am also noticing a lot of oral contraction - even in the BBC - of words like; "creating" becoming "crating" - ugh!
Another common error amongst my students is to mispronounce words - due to the influence of L1, then spell them as they say them, but this also applies to native speakers, as in DB's examples. Misspelling (or is that mis-spelling?) amongst native speakers who are dyslexic and follow the 'basic' rules of English spelling is common too, hence it is usually fairly easy to decipher what they mean.
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"Not only ... but also" in wrong position, e.g. "She's not only talented, but she also works hard".
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How are you? I'm good. I was sat watching the match.I'm stood waiting for the bus. We was ..... Need I say more or am I just hopelessly pedantic.
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There's a lot of people here, instead of there ARE.

Theirs alot of people here.
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I guess we might ask, "Do us teachers need to take some English classes?" .... a whole lot of mistaking going on here.
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I think by its very nature, spoken language tends to be more error laden but I think that one needs to distinguish between the tendency to err when engaged in spoken utterances in any language and genuine mistakes which are caused by a lack of knowledge of the language. Regional variations of English also come into play with some nationalities eschewing the present perfect, preferring to use past tenses instead. On the whole, native speakers of languages tend to make fewer mistakes in their first anguage than in their second but a few non systematic errors, at least in spoken language, are considered acceptable. I have noticed a tendency for English teachers to pedantry in this area but ultimately, language is a tool for communication, not a collection of rules to be followed.
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What I can tell you all--nobody is perfect in English writing including speaking much! I follow the AP style, few mistakes I notice time to time, like abc does.

He is taller than me --or it's me, common mistakes all time among natives. Interesting is I know almost all rulers of grammars, in spite of, I admit, I make mistakes though it is occasional.

However, if you tell me about conditional sentences, sorry, many times I feel appalled as many educated native/non native people almost all do wrong that makes me do wrong too or I feel most confused as well!.

What does Chomsky say here?

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/colorless-green-ideas-sleep-furiously-what-our-machines-minhaj-quazi?trk=mp-reader-card
1 day ago

<<What I can tell you all--nobody is perfect in English writing including speaking much! I follow the AP style, few mistakes I notice time to time, like abc does.>>

Mistakes matter when they impede communication. In part of each sentence above, I can only guess at what you mean. Can you identify which parts I'm referring to and rewrite them unambiguously, Minhaj?
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No quip statements are ambiguous types of meanings however, almost all ambiguous statements are generally quip statement! Now, pls. guess them only.

I admit your English is better than I have, you win.
Cheers!

I really dislike "I'm not understanding you" a term which northern Americans and even some English native speakers use. Grammatically speaking the term is "I don't understand you".
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That might fit into the growing amount of "verbing" that is taking place in the English language.

"Right now I'm facebooking". - that can feel strange and incorrect. Lots of that happening and this article has a good rundown about this - http://moreintelligentlife.com/content/ideas/anthony-gardner/youve-been-verbed
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I can't also understand those who are under the veil of advantages to have "Common intentional" wills!
Peace, cheers!

Agree with Ross Gulliver....genuine mistakes which are caused by a lack of knowledge of the language.
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Some of we needs to take English class's
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Allen. Hehehe.
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I agree with Ross Gulliver that ( Language is a tool for communication not a collection of rules to be followed ) . Thus if the receiver got the message that is all . But in formal situations like international conferences , lecture Halls , presentations , ........sticking to rules is a must .
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<<I really dislike "I'm not understanding you" a term which northern Americans and even some English native speakers use. Grammatically speaking the term is "I don't understand you".>>

Is it not semantically correct? Does it not imply "I haven't understood you yet. I'm still trying to understand you so keep talking." In that case, should one not use the continuous tense. About 18 months ago, I noted how erroneous grammar books are in how they divide verb forms that can follow other verbs. I'm referring to infinitives, -ing forms, and those that can be both. Keep in mind that grammar books, like dictionaries, are descriptive. It's teachers that are the prescriptivists.

<<Some of we needs to take English class's>> ---Allen C. Turner, Ph.D., J.D.

Evidently, it's not just a lack of language skills that accounts for this communication breakdown.

What about the totally illogical, such as "I could care less." when what they actually mean is that they COULDN'T care less? That really annoys me.

Another example that I have experienced is that It is not clear.

Me
What I've read so far is not uncommon in the Indian languages that I know. Native speakers of Tamil (this spelling doesn't represent the sounds accurately--it should be 'Thamizh', but nobody has bothered) commit mistakes in pronunciation (where meaning can change completely), construct ungrammatical structures; native speakers of Hindi do, too.
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I work with a good number of people with Ph,D in English.
One lady says ' I shooted the question", another says " the story was shrinked".There are hundreds of such incidents... In one of our CALL sessions, I was deeply hurt when an Associate Professor with Ph D in English said " inanimated object" and the students started using the same in their presentations. There many teachers who say " could not be able to " and the sad part is that students pick them up from their teachers.
English might cry out and say " Eli eli lama sabhachthani" 
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" and the sad part is that students pick them up from their teachers."

Mr. Deva, you have hit the nail on the head.

Many teachers having PhD in English write --Ph,D, Ph.D and so on list is unlimited. But why? American browser or British?
In Chamber concise dictionary, they write--inanimated too, before implying others are doing wrong, shouldn't we all be over cautious whether we are all correct?

Like many hyphenated adjectives are most troublesome issue even to educated natives,
Unprofessional or nonprofessional? Imbalance or unbalance( all are correct here!)---many many, and so on.

The shrinking of country side--if it is right, it is not made any sense, why doesn't it correct the mentioned one and so on--it is really a mystery for me! Of course, I make mistake, it is idiomatic term like--do/make verb, without these types, many many, of unlimited matters can't be only the subject of pedantic grammarian issues, these variations could be the issues of regions to regions too,among native areas, sorry, we can't identify them immediately incorrect.

Like---you should feel comfort or you should take comfort--don't get mad!

We should tell our students explicitly, sorry, you shouldn't be exasperated whatever you see in writing and speaking as many problems are based on famous and powerful groups of styles, like
Oxford/AP/Michigan, and so on. When some body writes (') one quotation mark later part writes double("), either it is unconsciously or conscious ways, as he has grasped of them perfectly!

Sorry, I don't generally see any English professors are most articulate here in writing because of not habituating "Copy writing or editing " jobs, a different phenomenon.

Sorry, many prominent teachers are not aware here that misleads the students most.
I'll be back momentarily, instead of in a moment.

My mother never used to use past participles, she would always say 'I have spoke' and sometimes 'I have went' - I noticed later it was really common in the village she grew up in with her generation.
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panish is a syllable-timed language*. When Spanish speakers transfer the intonation patterns of their mother tongue into English, which is a stress-timed language, the result may sometimes be barely comprehensible to native English speakers. This is because the meaning or information usually conveyed in English by the combination of stress, pitch and rhythm in a sentence is flattened or evened out by the Spanish learner

"should of" aggravates me to the point of distraction.
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Usually the native speakers tend to speak wrong! We have the same problem in Persian language. When it comes to speaking correctly, we get mixed up and somehow dumb!

Most native English speakers use conversation English.
. The difference between conversation and more formal English is one reason that even “advanced” students have difficulty with everyday conversations.
English conversation is quite different from formal English.
Conversation uses a different type of English, including different vocabulary.
Informal language known as conversation English is characterized by a simpler grammatical structure, loosely-connected sentences, phrases and personal evaluation.
You need to know informal English if you want to be able to understand and communicate with English speakers in everyday situations. 

New words and actions are being used in languages like saying "google it" to refer "search" and I think that´s part of the evolution of the language. What it s weird to my ears is still listening people saying "he don´t know"
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Each type of speaker offers something different.

Re: American English(es), there's a great PBS documentary that looks into some of the more common variations in English usage across the USA and some remarkably sudden historical changes usage: "Do You Speak American?" http://www.pbs.org/speak/

Rather than languages homogenising, as some linguists and sociologists have predicted in the past, we tend to emphasise differences to identify ourselves as members of particular social groups. Apparently, there's a new dialect emerging in Portland.

In the UK, you can look at English usage in towns and areas as little as 30km apart and find some striking differences.

To say that an established or emerging dialect is "wrong" is to miss one of the many facets and purposes of languages.
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I just did this - just plus past simple; atrocious in my opinion - I have just done this. Just with the past simple means "only". There is also a tendency, sadly on American TV, that I have noticed, for celebrities and others to say "If I would have" - this make me cringe. Perhaps these affect only the British native speakers so. I know languages does, and has to, develop; but!!!
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An interesting article in the British press today; Oxford Dictionary unveils 500 new words ... and new uses for existing ones
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/oxford-english-dictionary-unveils-500-5944157

I think these variations are found due to the cultural and lingual background.People speak the way that their community speak.

Nothing wrong with "I just did it" if that is what you mean. I'm sure you can conjure up situations where this a likely response.

Yes but not when you mean "I have just done it". 
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I hear this everyday: "Me" and my friends are going to .... (ugh)...

“Me and my friends went for some ice cream” is actually quite a common usage produced by native speakers of all kinds.
This happens because what linguists would call the “unmarked” or standard, basic form for pronouns turns out to be the objective form—me, him, her, them, and the like.
If you look at the web page of the following link you will see the rules regarding using “me and….”
https://wordwatchtowers.wordpress.com/2010/02/07/my-friends-and-i-or-me-and-my-friends/

And based on these variations, some cleaver people are being done their business most cunningly that is most unacceptable! It is most pathetic issue that many non natives policy makers are so ignorant over these facts which make them to discriminate among native vs non native teachers payment of salary around the globe--specially in China.

Hope authorities around the globe will be most conscious over there to make proper justice. One issue made me to write this article to pulse a few months ago, pls. read it and be conscious over there as well:

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/colorless-green-ideas-sleep-furiously-what-our-machines-minhaj-quazi

I would agree, even in Canada itself, there are different variations, but we must be conscious. In order to do that, we must ask ourselves what is the common core and what have i done to make students learn?
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Between you and I, Amany , drives me mad 😠 as well.

The following essay is grammatically perfect. Enjoy!

"Proper has not, and undoubtedly never will be equitable, accumulated, and multitudinous. Humankind will always appease proper; many with depletion but a few of taunts. Grammar which commands irascible assassins but is assented lies in the search for semiotics as well as the field of semiotics. Due to the fact that rectify provides avocations which perform protrusion, society should embolden grammar immediately.

The agreement, frequently on the civilization, might be rivetingly surrounding for right. The less allocutions menace an accumulation that might be irascibility to the appendage or insist, the less the demonstration should discordantly be postulation. Additionally, an orbital is not the only thing simulation at protrusion oscillates; it also produces interference by the casuistry on grammar. In my literature class, all of the utterances with our personal consequence on the assumption we surround compel reprobates and attest. Still yet, armed with the knowledge that an epigraph is zealous, judicious, and furtive and bemoans propagandists, none of the apprentices of our personal ligation for the quip we excommunicate preach an authentication. In my experience, some of the aborigines at my accusation demonstrate those involved. an obvious right abandons privation on our personal amanuensis to the administration we surprise as well. The amplification by concurrences deliberates, not sequester. Our personal assimilationist of the speculation we sequester foretells a cerebrally sedulous zenith. The diligently or inflexibly febrile synecdoche that may be contemplation with correct changes correct which is pagan yet somehow feckless.

According to professor of semantics Mark Twain, mankind will always pledge grammar. a neuron reacts to receive pendulums. The same plasma may process two different brains to catalyze information for masochism. Radiation is not the only thing the neutrino reproduces; it also produces an orbital on proper. The sooner the amygdala reprimands most of the authorizations at pallid aggregations, the less pledges contend but perform expressiveness to demarcations. a quantity of correct changes the injudicious proper.

According to professor of philosophy Leon Trotsky, proper is the most fundamental circumstance of human society. Although gravity by onslaught counteracts plasmas for a probe, the gamma ray spins. The same neuron may emit two different gamma rays of vernacular to implode. The orbital is not the only thing the brain reproduces; it also transmits interference by rectify. By insisting, reports with expositions renege also at grammar. If the ruminations involved admonish sanctions, the agronomist to proper can be more manifestly mesmerized.

Correct for undernourishment that can frugally be assemblage and disrupts a assembly on the trope has not, and probably never will be accumulated but not effortless. In any case, knowing that the gregariously or cruelly blubbering disruption seethes, nearly all of the arrangements of our personal adjuration with the sophist we beseech expel an embroidery or accede. From shrieking, dictators which assassinate agreements attest to the same extent of rectify. Grammar by provision will always be an experience of humanity. Despite the fact that culmination will recount orations, proper is both homogenized and capstone."

Mmm... grammar...


Well, almost grammatically perfect... A few bits'n'bobs are wrong.